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Featured Responsibility

Discussion in 'General Chit Chat' started by liam0, Jan 7, 2013.

  1. liam0

    liam0 Registered

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    Another serious post form me.............. Sorry.

    After reading a few posts in the past week I just wanted to ask a few questions..........

    Who's responsibility is it to make a hobbyist knowledgeable?

    I always ask my LFS for advice when buying stock and trust them to be honest and they have been since I used them. However I trusted my old LFS and they made a good few quid off me for things I didn't need.

    Do or should you trust your LFS?

    Whose responsibility is it to know where the stock is from? After a recent 'discussion' on another thread are you bothered about where stock comes from? I have never asked my LFS if something is 'legal' or anything of that nature. Just is it easy to care for etc.
     
  2. clubber122

    clubber122 Registered

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    Responsability

    I'm more concerned if the stock is cyanide caught as I want it to live, but if I knew a fish was an illegal import and I didn't buy it someone else would?


    Regards
    Sean
     
  3. StarfishEnterprise

    StarfishEnterprise Registered

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    Wow, U-turn from Liam on the seriousnessssss........

    Have to say that i always believe an LFS should be up front, helpful, responsible, i dont like those that miss lead or miss sell products i think this is wrong and basically a "con". Same with back yard selling, fine if they are selling off your personal stock but if you are importing from who knows where and potentially supporting illegal trade i could not justify a purchase to save a few quid. On the other hand who's to know where the shop gets them from? Its taken years of visiting shops up and down the country to find retailers i can trust, thank fully we have a good selection of reputable outlets in the north west.
     
  4. Moneydownthecouch

    Moneydownthecouch Registered

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    With my limited experience in this hobby, with hindsight I would do things differently. I would search the internet, buy books and seek advice from forums such as this. However, we went into it blind and visited a couple of shops and blindly accepted their advice which turned out to be pretty duff. It took a while, but we found our current supplier by accident and they have turned out to be extremely helpful and trustworthy. It was the first time we had ever been told that we could not have a particular fish or coral as it was unsuitable for our set up. For me, that was enough and with a combination of their advice, us learning a little more as we went along, we learned who to trust and who not to. So in conclusion, there is some responsibilty with the hobbyist to research things beforehand, but also it's wonderful to find a lfs who you trust.


    Damned good point BTW#


    Phil
     
  5. ged@fishnochips

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    I too have never questioned legality of the stock, as I don't expect to be sold illegal stock from a reputable LFS

    Legal stock should be the norm, and if it is illegal, then the LFS should say, look I have these knock off corals, would you like to buy at a low price rather than a high extortionate one. Not condoning it at all, but at least you then have the choice to accept or decline.

    Thats like going to PCWorld and getting a bent copy of windows on your PC or Laptop, it just should not happen.
     
  6. liam0

    liam0 Registered

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    Is it up to the LFS to know they are legal though? Obviously with my new venture I feel responsible to make sure the stock is ethically caught, handled and shipped and of course legal. I don't anticipate many shop owners asking if my stock is legal as they should have the same relationship with me as their customers have with them?
     
  7. ged@fishnochips

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    Yes - Because if they don't check then they are guilty as well.

    If I buy a stolen VCR I can be done for handling stolen goods. Ignorance of the law is no defence in a court of law.

    If a LFS does not check whether or not stuff is legal, or knowingly buys illegal stock, seriously, are they a credible retailer?

    Who on earth would want to risk their livelihood, and not check? They have a responsibility to make sure we are buying from a reputable source.

    In my eyes, illegal stock is not reputable.
     
  8. Moneydownthecouch

    Moneydownthecouch Registered

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    I believe it is certainly the LFS responsibility to "ensure" the stock is legal and above board
     
  9. liam0

    liam0 Registered

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    Agree with the cyanide mate, I think 101% of people would. Have you ever asked if that fish or coral is illegal was more the question dude? Then if they said yes would you buy it anyway?

    'Why so serious?'

    I trusted my old LFS to educate me as he was 'in the business' and he was delighted by this decision. Thing is, IMO, the hobby is amateur filled. There are no experts in the hobby as things work for one and not another, differing levels, lights, flow, nutrients etc etc etc


    You went on a very similar road to me Phil. I think the sting from the old shop sort of helped me research things a bit more, then I joined here and changed LFS and things have got better and easier. :dance:
     
  10. StarfishEnterprise

    StarfishEnterprise Registered

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    Have to agree.

    I always believed that the stock was "legal" kind of taken a back at the idea that i could have purchased illegal livestock or any goods for that matter. Just assumed a shop front would always be legal.
     
  11. ged@fishnochips

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    Don't get me wrong, everyone is tempted at a bargain or a knock off item, as they save money.

    My arguement is that if it is not 100% legal, then it shouldn't be sold as a normal everyday item.

    A choice should be given, so the buyer can make up their own mind and knowingly take part in it, and not be duped.

    I don't think anyone would turn down a £600 laptop or ipad if they are offered it for £100 - But logic says, and really does smack you in the mouth, 'Why is it so cheap?'

    You wouldn't even question it if a £600 laptop or ipad was £600 would you? But then the person selling the knock off item, makes tonnes of profit, and Joe Bloggs get an inferior product (if counterfeit).
     
  12. liam0

    liam0 Registered

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    I think the responsibility should solely be on the importer, the shop shouldn't have to ask if they are legal is the point I think. If you went to your LFS and bought a coral and got arrested for handling stolen goods because you didn't ask isn't that the same?

    Get a DVD player Ged! VCR?!!!
    Hysterical
    As above Phil, get a dvd. :tongue:
     
  13. ged@fishnochips

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    You never hear of a stolen DVD though, it was always VCRs when I went Pub lol

    IMO if a Shop does not check to see if legally imported etc then they are just as bad as a burgular etc

    In all honesty, then that shop is not worth shopping at, being legal is the minimum requirement that they should be checking for. After all, they can hardly go to court and say 'Yes m'lud, I bought £30k of corals, and I never knew they were illegal, I am sorry, it won't happen again'.

    Just as, 'Yes m'lud, the fact this VCR was a tenner, and I bought it from a geezer in the Pub, and it wasn't in a box, and there was no remote, but I genuinely believed it was a legit sale' is no defence.

    The importer is like a shop keeper, and if they deal with illegal imports, knowingly, they may as well be drugs importers. There is no defence for ignorance, or breaking the law knowingly.
     
  14. liam0

    liam0 Registered

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    How many people who visit TMC ask if there stock is legal do you think?
     
  15. ged@fishnochips

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    How many times have TMC been taken to court or had a newspaper piece written about them, for importing illegal corals etc?

    TMC are reputable, and if they weren't would be nowhere as big as they are.

    Thats like asking how many people go to Debenhams and then ask the chick on the till, if their designer goods are legit.
     
  16. LittleOcean

    LittleOcean Registered

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    I reckon it's normally the sort of thing that's sorted at the time of supplier - lfs meet and greet.. there maybe even something about it in their terms and conditions etc.. no idea?

    but I certainly wouldn't expect the LFS to ask the supplier every time they make an order.. "does my order contain anything illegal"
    like any business relationship.. once a trust is established and a few orders under the belt I would assume that the stock is all legit and of top quality etc..
     
  17. Eaval

    Eaval Registered

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    I would say it was the importers job to ensure it was legal to bring into the Country - different Country different laws ...

    I would hope that the shop keepers would be knowledgeable enough to know what are banned and what are not - if they import direct, they should know anyway! if they buy from TMC etc the duty of care for my goes back to the importer.

    In terms of research for fish and corals - I wouldnt expect hobbists to have to learn what is legal and what is not, we buy things that we like and are normally more interested in will it be compatable with my setup and tank mates, can I care for it and meet its requirements?
     
  18. liam0

    liam0 Registered

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    If the shop owner is responsible for asking then shouldn't they ask anyway? I know fish can't be imported illegally but hard/endangered corals can so should they ask them about them?

    The 56k thread could have been a supplier that people had used for years, developed a relationship and trusted them?

    Gedmin. Brilliant.

    But then............. are they not being responsible for the goods they stock?

    It's more the way they are imported that make them illegal, if the relevant paperwork isn't up to standards and certain parts are labelled as others then they get seized like the one that was brought to everyones attention.

    We shop, see something we like and buy it. Shops do the same with a customer POV don't they? Buy what will sell and what will attract customers?

    Now I have all my licences I can't import illegal fish, just unethical but theres no point as they will die. That would hurt me as a business and a hobbyist. I'm not out to make a million, just do something I like and if I make a few quid along the way then great.
     
  19. ocean_gems

    ocean_gems Registered

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    Why not double check with the shop before purchasing your corals, ask them to see any CITES paperwork? I know not all shops import direct, but if they did, they would need CITES paperwork to cover all hard corals. The shops that dont import direct and go through importers based in the UK or Europe should be able to get hold of copy cites that the importer used. We also import stock under another name, as you know Liam :) we now provide copies of all CITES paper work that is relevant to the corals on the invoice!!! Simples ;)
     
  20. Mitchell

    Mitchell Registered

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    The responsibility begins and ends with the person buying the item for suitability and sustainability, however as this is a hobby and we are all hobbyists we do rely on the shop keeper for advice and this is where problems may arise.


    The shop keeper is there with a primary aim to sell stuff, given the choice the shopkeeper will sell you stuff with the best profit margin or shortest shelf life possible or whatever they have available at that time that will suffice and get the till ringing. That aside now that you understand the role of the shopkeeper you can see where the good quality shopkeepers will step away from their core objective of selling stuff to add a sprinkling of knowledge, common sense and try and offer advice and support even if it goes against the core object of selling stuff.
    Just like with the customer and the shopkeeper relationship, the shopkeeper with the wholesaler, we all hopefully build a relationship that is based on solid knowledge, trust and the desire to play on an even playing field and stay within the laws applicable to the market.



    In summary:
    The customer’s job is to buy stuff having learnt what it is they want to buy from a shop.


    The shopkeeper’s job is to offer for sale stuff that he hopes customers might like to buy. The shopkeeper hopes to build a returning client base and may offer advice/services in additional to the goods as an incentive for customer loyalty.


    The wholesales job is to make stuff available for sale to shops in larger quantities in the hope they might like to buy it and stock their shelves with it without undercutting the shopkeeper.

    Manufacture’s make stuff they hope the wholesalers might like to fill there warehouses with and offer them to shops.

    Importers, well import stuff into the country in large quantities and offer for sale to a selections of the above, however some importers / wholesalers might try and sell to all levels of the market place but this seldom works and often ends up with the importer having their fingers burnt or a ball hammer taken to the toes.


    Just a quick flick through the basics of the supply chain.


    With this being a hobby you might expand your knowledge beyond the point of just keeping the livestock alive and consider the wider ramifications of sustaining, catching, transporting, and importing said livestock. This information is of more importance to the importer/wholesaler or not depending on the ethical stance of the individual in charge of the buying for each company.


    For me personally I buy my stuff from people I trust. I trust these people because I have taken the time to watch, listen and learn how these people go about their business. There are some businesses that are operated purely as a business (with little interest of supporting customers beyond the till or with little livestock/product knowledge to help customers in the first place) whereas the better family run small business tend to have more interest in the livestock they buy and sell. There is a lot that can be said for how you treat other people and if you see somebody riding roughshod over someone else, cutting corners at every opportunity then chances are they will gladly do the same to you.



    Look out for the shopkeepers who are interested in supporting the reefing community, the ones that will host get togethers and spend time offering advice on forums, the ones that work eight days a week and will still be available to support regular customers who find themselves in need of a last minute purchase/loan.



    This last one is one of the customer’s most important responsibilities, to make sure the good ethical local bricks and mortar fish stores survive by offering repeat business and putting back into the reefing community.
     
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