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Featured Juwel Trigon 190 and Marine tank setup.

Discussion in 'Help and Advice' started by FmJames, Feb 22, 2010.

  1. FmJames

    FmJames Fish Health Advisor

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    Hi there

    A QT setup should not set you back more than £100 max, search for clear seal tanks, i bought a 3ft clear seal tank for £56 delivered if you dont have space, then you could buy 2ft tank, heaters are £15 or so and a small second hand Fluval 205 can be had for 30-40 or something even smaller. Medication should set you back about anywhere from £20-£40 depending how and what you want to treat. So you don't need another £600 pounds. like I said, don't rush and read the threads at the top of the Fish Health section for more info on qt setup. Although I should mention some do get away with not QT anything, so I will leave to you to decide what you want to do.

    glad I could help :)
     
  2. MarkR

    MarkR Registered

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    Didn't realise it was that cheap for a QT setup, that isn't so bad.

    I have just drained all the water from the tropical setup in the last hour, next I just need to scrub the tank so its immaculately clean. I need to remove the current Juwel filter in the corner, how did you get yours out?
     
  3. FmJames

    FmJames Fish Health Advisor

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    with a sharp and long knife and very moderate force :)

    be careful not to crack the glass.
     
  4. MarkR

    MarkR Registered

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    Now that would be a disaster :oops:

    Have you looked into LED lights and if so how much do you think it would cost? Would you say LED would be massively better than the T5 whites and blues?
     
  5. MarkR

    MarkR Registered

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  6. MarkR

    MarkR Registered

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    Just looking at the lighting at the moment and you mention the 24w is shorter, how much shorter are they compared to the 28w?
     
  7. rabbut

    rabbut Registered

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    James did put a lot of effort into that informative post above, and much of it I agree with. :smile:

    However, I'd argue that 3 months QT is only really advisable on larger systems, or where you have a really heavy stocking density. I'm very strongly against prophylactic treatment also, as it puts the fish under chemical stress and increases the chances of organ failure in later life for no good reason. I'd only treat in QT if the fish became ill. The long period of observation should be suffice to spot most things that are on the fish in pest proportions. Our stock is mostly wild caught, so they are hard as nails and not exactly disease prone unless really stressed up or there is otherwise something wrong to make their immune system be lowered. If your stock constantly gets ill without preventative treatment, you have a husbandry issue that needs addressing, you do not need to throw meds at the fish to mask the underlying problem :unsure:

    To echo James above though, If you do treat with anything, it has to be done in QT, as most meds decimate good stuff in the display.

    I'm not a fan of TMC strips for anything other than Soft corals. Frankly, for what you pay for them they are un-reliable, underpowered pieces of (oh wait, this is a family forum, I'd better stop there). I'd therefore agree with James in going hoodless if you want to keep more light demanding corals, to open up your lighting options and avoid problems. If you're happy with LPS and softies, adding two additional lamps as James suggested above is a good idea, though many softies will be fine under the stock lighting...

    Maybe I was a bit harsh about TMS strip LED's. The Blues are great for moonlighting, but the whites don't seem capable of growing anything other than Algae.

    Skimmers are a touchy subject for many. On small tanks I wouldn't bother, however as you are a beginner and it's a medium sized tank, having one is probably a good idea. They can help to mop-up after errors... I'd definitely have the MCE600 over the 300 though, as the 300 is often considered less efficient and noisier. Plus the 600 is more commonly available second hand, so can actually be cheaper to source...
     
  8. MarkR

    MarkR Registered

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    Thank's Rabbut - it was this thread that James started and your advice that has given me the confidence to take the marine dive.

    In regards to lighting - I was going to replace the standard tubes with two T5's and I made my mind up on buying 2 LED strips in addition. I wasn't sure until now on what blue and white mixtures to buy. After reading your comments I will probably by x2 strips of Blue LEDs and x2 white T5's. would this be a good balance do you think? Would you say blue LEDs are better than T5 blues?

    I will keep my eyes open for a Deltec 600 as the less noise the better as it will be in the lounge.

    Thanks again!!
     
  9. rabbut

    rabbut Registered

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    IME you get better "pop" off blue LED's, so yes, that sounds a good lighting mix to me :smile:
     
  10. MarkR

    MarkR Registered

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    Blue LED's it is then!

    So my final equipment list will be:-
    TMC Aquaray x2 Blue LED's
    2x T5 28w white tubes
    Deltec MCE 600 Skimmer
    x2 Koralia powerheads 2800
    x1 Koralia Newave 1000 (or might go for the 2000??)
    20kg Live rock
    x1 200w heater
    405 Fluval canister filter (after a month of livestock going in)
    Fine sand SSB
    Probably use Tropic Marin pro reef salt - Hoping this will be good for coral???

    Fishes
    x2 Percula clown fish
    x1 Blue Damsel
    x1 Fox fish
    x1 Yellow Tang (With a big question mark - Thoughts??)

    Any other additions or changes greatly appreciated

    This will probably change slightly - Let me know your thoughts on any negatives and positives?

    Cleaning crew
    x1 Blue legged hermit
    x2 Turbo Snails
    x1 Feather Duster
    x2 Harlequinn shrimp
    x1 Red Blood shrimp
    x1 Orange Spot Goby

    Coral's
    x1 Green star polyps
    x1 Galaxy Coral
    x1 orange xoanthids
    x1 Toadstool leather mushroom
    X1 Bubble coral

    Again any changes or additions greatly appreciated. I want the corals to stand out in the blue lights.
     
  11. FmJames

    FmJames Fish Health Advisor

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    Hi Rabbut

    long time no speak, hope you are well :)

    although what you right is correct but nether is what i wrote wrong. Yes animal husbandry issues are an important factor in fish health but I think its wrong to provide this as a methodology that will deal with disease. The 3 months figure was a ballpark figure, my qt took 8months and other are only 2 monts, depends on what you wish to treat. ALL my fiish are happy to this day and I dont fear moving rocks, or putting my hand somewhere, fish fighting or a powerhead falling at night and scaring the fish and ending up with a disease outbreak because of factors I can or cant control. I lost the whole inhabitants of my first setup simply because of turning on a power head and 2 days from that event all fish were dead. In an ideal world good husbandry would suffice, but nothing is from idle in a marine setup where first are cramped into a space one many many hundred of thousand of times smaller than what they are used too, which allows marine disease to just bloom, fish are not designed to fish such situations, they have not evolved million of years of fighting disease in a fish tank, the parameters are very different.

    Disease in a marine tank just have an opportunity to take hold regardless of the event that triggered it. I qt all my fish and i know at least I wont have a problem with the more common disease that plague many. you might get away with over feeding and letting fish immunity overcome marine ich, but try that with velvet and brook and you will loose everything. By the time you have setup a qt to treat for brook and velvet its too late. This is from experience in treating for brook last time round, like i said its a choice, you can try your luck, and hope for that your husbandry is spot on and there are many cases of experienced aquarist that have lost many fish to disease outbreak.

    at the end of the day its a choice no right or wrong, I do it for peace of mind. Too many horror stories on the net about fish Disease wiping everthing out and from fist had experience, it very demoralising watching years of hard work wiped out in days if not hours.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2012
  12. FmJames

    FmJames Fish Health Advisor

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    So my final equipment list will be:-
    TMC Aquaray x2 Blue LED's
    2x T5 28w white tubes - Mare sure they are Marine whites
    Deltec MCE 600 Skimmer
    x2 Koralia powerheads 2800
    x1 Koralia Newave 1000 (or might go for the 2000??)
    20kg Live rock
    x1 200w heater - 300w would give you more leanway depending on the temperature of your room
    405 Fluval canister filter (after a month of livestock going in)
    Fine sand SSB
    Probably use Tropic Marin pro reef salt - Hoping this will be good for coral??? - I use Red Sea Coral Pro personally but cant comment on Tropic Marine, everyone has different opinion I suppose

    Fishes
    x2 Percula clown fish
    x1 Blue Damsel
    x1 Fox fish This will get over 10" if its the fish I think you are referring to
    x1 Yellow Tang (With a big question mark - Thoughts??) - You will be fine with just 1 tang(although the tang police will be on your case), and yellow is just fine. Get them smallish and not large, I have a yellow tang in mine :) But only 1 tang and no more, too small space tbh

    Any other additions or changes greatly appreciated

    This will probably change slightly - Let me know your thoughts on any negatives and positives?

    Cleaning crew
    x1 Blue legged hermit - Have read others having problem with them harasing corlas and some are ok with them, the red ones you hear fewer complaints about, so up to you really.
    x2 Turbo Snails
    x1 Feather Duster
    x2 Harlequinn shrimp - You do know these ONLY FEED ON STAR FISH, and you must buy live star fish and feed it to them or they will die. I find it too cruel tbh. Some grow starfish and cut their legs in alternates with clipers to feed it to them. This buying from lfg to feed them could also possibly introduce disease into your tank. Nor worth the effort tbh.
    x1 Red Blood shrimp - I had one and it died of starvation simply because of being too shy. They are quite shy and don't venture far from rock, specially compared to the more common cleaner shrimps, never know you might get lucky i suppose.
    x1 Orange Spot Goby

    Coral's
    x1 Green star polyps
    x1 Galaxy Coral
    x1 orange xoanthids
    x1 Toadstool leather mushroom
     
  13. MarkR

    MarkR Registered

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    Thank's James for the pointers and all noted. What are your thoughts if I replaced the Yellow Tang with a small Regal Tang?
     
  14. FmJames

    FmJames Fish Health Advisor

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    regal tangs get larger than yellow tang by considerable margin and fast too. If you bought it, within 2 years you will have to re-home it, if that.
     
  15. rabbut

    rabbut Registered

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    Mark,

    The Blue Damsel and the Clowns will possibly (probably) cause issues :sad: They are from the same family, and as a rule don't like each other. In large tanks they can work, but I find in medium/small systems, more times than not, one will knock seven bells out of the other once settled, depending on the status of the clowns. A true pair will have the damsel. A "non-true" pair will be had by the damsel :sad: If you get 3 fish with a nice temperament you can get exceptions to the rule, but I do find they are exceptions.

    Also, the galaxy corals have to be watched. They can produce foot long sweeper tentacles and are rather aggressive. This means anything coral-wise 18" down-stream of them is potentially at risk of being attacked. With careful placement they are lovely, but you need to keep them in a low-flow corner really and ensure a good distance between it and your other coral specimens :wink:


    I agree with James on the tangs. The yellow will probably be OK, depending on how heavily you stock, the regal probably won't as they get big and fast :sad:


    As you say James, there is no right or wrong way with QT. I'm sure most people with a good understanding of disease will recommend it, and for a longer period of time also. It's the "preventative treatment" that causes the Marmite syndrome. Some people, like yourself, swear by it. Others, like me, swear at it. A majority will sit on the fence.

    FWIW though, I used to work in aquatic retail and have successfully treated marine velvet and brook. Unfortunately, clowns from many suppliers are rather prone to these two infections on arrival in-store. IMO, the main causes of major amounts of death with these two is slow reactions to it on the part of the keeper, and/or a reaction with the wrong meds. Brook usually only does in the clownfish family and leaves everything else, and often by the time there are symptoms it's too late, but a minority of clowns that are healthy and rested at the LFS will go on to have issues, and if you treat on symptoms you can stop it's spread very easily. Velvet is a different kettle of fish. That is easily treated and cure rates are high when treated right. :thumbup1:
     
  16. MarkR

    MarkR Registered

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    All noted - I wii get my final list for the fish and corals complete once I have bought all equipment.

    Will I be able to add LPS coral with my chosen lighting setup?

    And lastly as you know I am buying x2 2800 power heads and x
    1 Newave. Should I buy the 1000 or the 2000 Newave?
     
  17. rabbut

    rabbut Registered

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    I'm a fan of more flow than less really, so I'd go for the bigger of the two pumps if it's in budget :smile:

    Certain LPS will be OK higher-up with 2 TMC strips and 2 T5's IMO. :thumbup1: You might just want to research a bit more carefully about light requirements, and avoid anything overly light loving.
     
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