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Featured Juwel Trigon 190 and Marine tank setup.

Discussion in 'Help and Advice' started by FmJames, Feb 22, 2010.

  1. FmJames

    FmJames Fish Health Advisor

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    Ok just an update.

    I have now managed to get a tank made for me in the dimensions you mentioned rabbut. Would like some advice on where i go from here please.

    Because I could not obtain a tank fast enough and due to the vicious outbreak I had my LFS agreed to take care of my fish. So I took all the fish back to my LFS and they are treating them for me but unfortunately
    my purple tang was too weak and died.

    What I am not happy about is that the fish I got from my LFS in the first place were infected and frankly I do not trust them anymore. Although they said they will treat and quarantine my fish I want to quarantine them myself again for
    another 8 weeks.

    I wanted to know how long does my main tank have to be free of fish before this marine ICH parasite is dead? The shop said 2-6 weeks but I have seen 8 week figures, personally myself i want to leave it for 12 weeks, this incident has made me very
    cautious about anything the shop says to me. I am going to get a UV steriliser soon too to help kill this parasite.

    Another question i have is should I treat any new fish I buy in the future with copper medicine regardless if they have marine ich or not in the quarantine tank? I never want to experience this madness again.

    also my cleaner shrimp is carrying eggs and I do not want million cleaner shrimps in my tank in a few months time. Usually I would assume that they would be food for fish but Since I have none how can I stop this?

    I was planning on transferring everything to a juwel 450 L aquarium or a 6ft aquarium sometime early next year.

    thanks guys





    than you
     
  2. rabbut

    rabbut Registered

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    8 weeks fallow is usually considered the minimum recommended, as with anything else in this hobby though, if you can wait longer it is considered better. 12 weeks would probably be ideal [001_smile.gif] 2-6 weeks certainly isn't long enough.

    Cleaner shrimps have a reputation for being difficult to raise in caprivity. They are really small when hatched out, so skimmers and mechanical filtration are likely to remove them. Some corals may eat them also. Chances are, even without fish, few if any young will survive for long [023.gif]

    IMO, treatimg any fish in QT "just in case" is a bad idea. Your increasing the stress on the animal, just at a point when you want stress at a minimum. All treatments are poisons that will do the fish more harm than good if used indescriminately [sad.gif] Only treat your fish if you need to becase you've seen a disease problem, diagnosed it accurately and are subsiquently 100% sure that your using the correct medication for the job, and that the medication won't have an adverse affect on the fish. Mandarins and Puffers for example aren't going to take copper well for e.g. and will likely cark it if you use that treatment with them [blink.gif]
     
  3. MarkR

    MarkR Registered

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    I have a Trigon 190 which I was using for tropical fish and I have stumbled on this very informative thread. I would like to convert the tank to a marine and will probably go down the route of buying equipment from list the above, although I believe there is some negativity on the Fluval 405 external canister filter? If so what should I use instead.

    Would I be better of with a sump or can I do without this?

    I want to set it up properly and use equipment that will give minimal maintenance. I do not know if you are still on this forum FMJames and if you are wondered how things are going with your 190 (if you still have it) and what equipment works for you? Also Rabbut has been VERY helpful :thumbup1:

    Any advice on this initial first step of equipment buy would be greatly appreciated.
     
  4. FmJames

    FmJames Fish Health Advisor

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    Hi There

    Wow this thread brings back memories :) how time has flown by lol

    I still have the tank and have just finished sumping the tank with great difficulty~(the tank was full when i supped it), i just saw this message today very late so will give a more detailed reply later on.

    but honestly I would stay away from this shape tank for a PROPER marine setup. Because of its shape and size constraints its better to get a rectangular shape tank with at lesat 400-500l of water for a marine set-up with lots of space for nice fish. The shape makes everything very difficult(but not impossible), from everything to fish fighting because of space constraints to flow problems to all the way to sump size and so on.

    But if you are adamant about keep the tank and willing to put a lot of effort its certainly possible to make it work for a small setup. I will be upgrading in a years or so. But before I do i will complete my tank, I am going to be upgrading the lights and going full blown corals. Not sure if I am ready to remove the lid yet.

    I will give more complete answer on what to equipment to buy later.

    If you are going going to empty then sumping is on option but there are also other options too- will discuss the pros and cons of this later.

    In regards to the fluval 405, they are hit and miss. But both my 305 and 405 work good but because of stupid mistake, I ended up removing my 405 due to having to replace the impeler cover every few weeks. But if you have no sump then external filter is a must.

    indeed big thanks to Rabbut:)
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2012
  5. MarkR

    MarkR Registered

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    Thanks James and I am so pleased you still have the 190.

    OK so first of all the tank will be going in our lounge and the only available space is in the right hand corner and the alcove only measures 118cm. I looked at the Rio 300 and that measures 121cm, 3cm out!!! I did look at the Rio 180 but of course that only takes 180 litres where the 190 takes 190 litres. So for now I think I have no choice but to stick with the one I have.

    If you think I can get away with not having a sump and go down the external filter route then I will do exactly that and will probably replicate what you have done. I want to buy all the right equipment from the start including the best lighting as I really want to get it right from the start.

    Also do I really need the RO unit and will it make my life a lot easier?

    I found somebody selling there complete Juwel 190 marine setup including fish here juwel trigon 190 aquarium with full marine set up at Aquarist Classifieds . Thing is they are miles away from where I live. I think I prefer the idea of setting it up from new as for me this is one of the most exciting parts.

    Really look forward to hearing back from you and I really appreciate your help. :smile:

    By the way if anyone can recommend a tank that will fit in the alcove (118cm) then let me know.
     
  6. MarkR

    MarkR Registered

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  7. jrob3rts

    jrob3rts Registered

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    Just adding my thoughts here...

    The difference between the 180 and 190 is not noticeable as such. If you were talking about 150l and 250l then maybe it would be a different story. The problem you have is the 121cm clearance. It rules out many 4ft tanks as the cabinet will often stick out a little further.

    The main problems I see with the Trigon are:
    • Lighting. Many light fixtures are rectangular and as such you will not usually be able to find a light to fit without having to supplement or adding some modifications. If you are going Fish Only then you can stick with the stock lighting fixture.
    • Shape - As mentioned, it's not the best for flow, you may end up buying more powerheads / wavemakers to ensure there are no dead spots.
    • Sump Option - It's possible, but as mentioned above it's a pain and you are usually restricted but the cabinet size, reducing the size of sump dramatically.
    • Rock placement within a Trigon is a bit of a pain. It takes more work, and may not always end up as you like (It never does anyway lol)
    You may want to consider looking for some sumped second hand or new tanks which often pop up over the internet or local shops.

    As for external filter. Throw out any knowledge you have of filtration if you have kept tropicals. The main use of an external filter is to hold carbon, phosphate remover and some floss to polish the water. The former 2 help to clean the water and remove phosphates (not so important if you are doing Fish Only).

    As for your link to the Trigon tank. One thing I would like to throw into the equation here is that purchasing a second hand tank has it's disadvantages too. There is a very high risk that you may cause a "cycle" within the tank which is effectively a new tank process which occurs when there is considerable die off due to transportation. This in turn can kill al live stock. If you do look for a complete setup, ask for advice in transportation first, advice is always available. I would also look for someone who will supply a complete kit, for example, I see no mention of skimmer, type of lighting, make / type of wave makers / powerheads and various other things on the advert you mentioned.

    James
     
  8. MarkR

    MarkR Registered

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    Thanks for the reply.

    I only posted the links for the size only to see what the thoughts were between the 180 and 190. I think I might be better off just keeping the 190 after what you have just posted.

    I do plan to buy all accessories that I need. Hopefully I will be able to add suitable lighting to my 190 as you mention. I will probably replicate JamesFM's setup (hopefully).

    At the moment my Trigon 190 is sitting in the dining room with water still in it from when I had tropical fish well over a year ago. I will need to drain all of this out and obviously give it a very thorough clean so it is like new.
     
  9. jrob3rts

    jrob3rts Registered

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    Have you used any treatment when you kept tropicals? If so, you may want to read the effects on copper leeching into and from the silicon if it were copper based. Not sure if it's really a problem, but definitely worth being aware of.
     
  10. MarkR

    MarkR Registered

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    Only treatment I used was when I was putting fresh water in on water changes was Tetra AquaSafe. I also added on occasions Tetra Easy Balance. Other than this no other treatment. I hope this was ok and doesn't cause problems for what I want to do?
     
  11. Realist

    Realist Registered

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    Thats fine. Copper based meds can be an issue but the items above are perfectly fine. Why not get your tank thread started and get scrubing lol
     
  12. MarkR

    MarkR Registered

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    Good I am pleased that I haven't caused any problems by using those.

    I was going to start a new thread but when I was searching the net this thread was exactly what I was looking for so thought I might as well bring it back to life. But your right I better get scrubbing soon to start off my marine adventure lol

    P.S If you think I should start a fresh thread then I can
     
  13. MarkR

    MarkR Registered

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    Hi JamesFM. I will be buying my equipment really soon and was hoping you could tell me what equipment you now have. If I do not hear back I will more than likely go for the setup up you listed a while back as it seems to be very good.
     
  14. FmJames

    FmJames Fish Health Advisor

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    Hi

    Ok lets get started and see if I can help you a little, some thing I am only going to mention and others you seem to have got by the number of threads you have. As others in this thread have given you good advice about trigon 190 and its pros and cons as a marine fish tank, then I will leave it up to you to decide whether its good or bad option.

    But what I would buy and do depends if you want to keep corals and what type of corals, as this ultimately determines your equiptmet choice.

    IMPORTANT PLEASE READ CAREFULLY

    Marine fish are more prone to disease than aquacultured fresh water fish. Most marine fish are brought straight from sea to supplier and then LFS and then onto you, I don't want to get into a deep discussion on this but only need to know that most if not all fish will be carrying some kind of disease some very sever and some not. There are many many many threads on this forum and many others about others who have developed disease and wiped the whole tank out. The thread starts with advice for treatment and then ends there with no update usually, indicating that most likely all livestock was lost.

    The more common marine diseases do not give much time for treating, ie tby the time you buy treatment(which most of the common over counter stuff is useless) its too late to help the fish, also most treatment that are EFFECTIVE is not possible to administer into the display tank and require separate qt tank. S0 my advice would be to buy a quarantine tank and employ prophylactic treatment of fish for 3 months with strict guarantee protocol. If you dont do anything at least treat for marine ich, read the article me and Aaron wrote in the fish health section for more on the issue. Its up to you and few have tanks set-up that don't use QT tanks and no treatments but its like walking on this ICE, only relying on luck and good husbandry at best.

    So I would seriously slow down a little and read much more on the matter, or you will just end up in disappointment and much more money lost.

    EQUIPTMENT

    1)D&D refractometer for your main tank
    2)TMC marine Refractometer for Quarantine tank, should you wish to employ hypo salinity to treat marine Ich, as D&D dont go
    far down on its scale reading
    3) FLUVAL 405 or 305 are both good for the tank size. They are good filters but I fiddles with the impeller cover. Buy a spare of the impeller cover and impeller shaft if you would like trouble free operations, also spare O ring washer is good. Over time the washers become dry and very very hard to plug the lid and make a water tight seal, so I use very small amount of Vaseline every 4-5 months to lubricate it so that it makes tight seal, some use food safe silicone grease(u should double check this, as some greases have more than just silicone in it.

    4) I use rowaphos to remove phosphate, VERY important that you use this from the word go to remove phosphate before it bind to your rocks and sand bed and leech back out, giving you all kinds of problem, this is one mistake i made, running the tnak without it for 1.5 years. I replace mine once every two weeks.

    5) Carbon Media is also a must.

    6) Filter Floss to polish the water, must be washed weekly to prevent detritus build-up.

    Live Rock and Filtration

    You need about 20KG of live rock, I bought mine from Live Rock Uk Home (if my memory is correct)
    They send it fully cured, so don't leave it out in the air for too long. You will get some die back and will need to leave it for anything
    up to 4 weeks for your parameters such as ammonia, nitrite and nitrate to fall back.

    You need a sand bed(unless you don't want any). There is many varied responses and replies regarding what is good and bad. Some employ deep sand beds of 4"-6" in their display which allows large bio load of fish due to its de nitrification properties and some prefer Deep sand beds in their sump, ie remote sand beds, which greatly helps with maintenance issues. I wont cover pros and cons in this post and can discuss questions of you have on the issue later. But personally I wish I had gone for a finer graine sand of about 2"-3" of oolite sand(very find sand) rather than sugar fine sand. Currently have about 1"-2" sand bed in my display and I really struggle with nitrates. I have now a sump and 6" sand bed in there.

    So you have to make a decision about bioload and fish. If you went with live rock and very low sand bed, you will struggle to keep nitrates very low unless you kept feeding to once every day or every two days(which some do)
    If you don't want a deep sand bed for aesthetic reasons and don't want sump, then I would highly recommend running either bio pelets or some kind of nitrate removing media. This is much easier method of increasing the bioload of your tank so that can stock much larger number of fish and kind of wished I had done this as its much much much much easier than to trying to fit a sump into a trigon 190.

    If you want to build a sump, then it must be installed before the tank is full of water, because the procedure becomes much riskier.

    Also dont buy that live sand malarkey unless you like the colour of the sand and cant find anything else on in an alternative. Ask on main forum about where to buy alternative sand. Make sure you wash good.

    ALso Deep Sand beds can be tricky and have some risks, so please read up on the matter or ask for more information or help if you dont understand anything. Nothing in the marine world comes without risks and benefits..

    8)Auto top up unit is a must, the evaporation and constant topping up can become serious nuisance, specially if you have lots of lights with lid off. I have a TMC auto top unit, a dual switch version, but reefloat also makes a custom version with very good feedback and customer service and he is very helpful too.

    LIGHTING

    I currently have 3x28w Juwel T5 light and 1x24 Juwel lights, although enough for most sofites, its no way near enough for more delicate corals and specially anemones. I currently have all these tuck under the lid, i managed to make space for them. I used an arcadia electric controlers Arcadia Electronic Controller - 2 x 24-39w T5

    If you want to keep more nicer looking stuff then the lid must really come off or you must go with Aquaray AquaBeam led strip lights, much nicer but much more expensive.

    AquaRay AquaBeam 600 Duo Twin - 2 x Reef White

    or ask in the main forum, I am sure others have more elegant LED solutions. I have not really spend much time looking at ready made solutions from other companies but rather I am going to make my own custom design when I am ready to move my corals from QT to the display tank, (yes corals must also be quarantined for 2-3 months, just like fish).

    tank lighting is complex area of marine hobby, so its so so simple and different setups need different type of T5 lights. I have 3 marine blues with 1 24w 50:50 mix. Those yellow looking lights that came with your Trigon are not ideal for marine setup.

    TEST KITS

    I use Salifert Test kits for everything. So just look them up and choose want you need.

    PUMPS AND POWERHEADS

    I have 3 powerheads and its still not enough because of the shape and rock placement, only have 20kg of rock too but it takes a lot of tinkering. I have 1x hydorkrolia 2200lph( this model discontinued now) and 1 x 2800lph and 1x 1000lph new wave for across the front of the tank as its not much movement there and had lots of detritus build-up.

    But you should be fine with 2x2800lph versions and add more ass you need.

    Dont forget to point either point a powerhead at the surface to keep the water agitated to help with gaseous exchange, I used to just point the return of fluval 405 there, but don't have that any more.

    RO REVERSE OSMOSIS FILTERS

    Contact Toby at littleocean, its his speciality :). Dont buy the D&D stuff. Toby has a shop online. But its an absolute must
    to give your fish nice clean water, really it depends on your source water how necessary it is but its good to have one anyway.

    Booster pump can be bought if your mains pressure is small. I bought a booster and it sped things up by about 45min, it now taks anywhere between 1.20-2.00 hours to fill a 25L bucket give or take a little. In summer its quick and winter is a appx a 1/3 slower.

    PROTEIN SKIMMER

    A must for such a small tank, although some run without them its not for us little guys, unless you have like only 2 fish.
    or are very experience in marine keeping. But I wont go into a discussion about what you need to go down this route.

    I had a deltec MCE 300 but upgraded it to the 600, very expensive but its worth it.

    HEATER

    I have a TMC V2 300W, but dont go smaller than this power rating, unless your house temp is constant.

    RCD CIRCUIT BREAKER AND TIMER

    I have a classica RCD circuit breaker just incase of electrocution(although I am sure much more robust items are available for sale) and
    also a classica timer, but much cheaper alternative timers are available on ebay.

    That should be most things, there is much much more i can write, but better to ask as you need, rather than me
    overload you.

    just keep asking, lots of nice people here that are willing to help :)

    and welcome to the trigon 190 club, oh make sure you pick your fish carefully as most marine fish get very large very quick.

    cold blooded patience is the key to success with marines and lots of research and listening to others with much more experience within reason.

    DISCLAIMER

    All this information I am proving you is for free and from my own experience and research and those of others who I have read and also those who helped me initialy. So I don't want to be help responsible for anything that goes wrong, make sure you do your own raeding to better help you understand what I have written.


    good luck
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2012
  15. MarkR

    MarkR Registered

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    Wow - Thank you James for spending the time to write all of this, greatly appreciated.

    Well I placed my order with Toby yesterday for my RO unit, I found him extremely helpful.

    I'm pleased you stuck with the Koralia's as I know you had them on your list a couple of years ago. I was going to buy three of the 2800's but will defintely look into the newave and will more than likely go for this instead for the third one. Did you consider going for a more powerful newave as I see they do a 2000 and 3000?

    I have decided not to (only at the moment) get an external filter as the live rock, so I have been advised, will be adequate for the time being. But I do plan on certainly getting an external filter within the next 6 months after setup.

    Could you tell me how you dispense the Rowaphos and how often and also how big a container did you buy?

    In regards to the lighting how did you fit these as at the moment I only have a dual fitting? I notice that you have 3x28 and 1x 24, do these come as complete units? I notice you also mentioned you have 3x marine blues, are these in addition?

    I will definitely buy a quarantine tank as the last thing I would want to happen would be to have a diseased tank in the first month. I presume you only dispense the prophylactic treatment in the quarantined tank when the fish is diseased?

    I will be buying the Deltec MCE 300 skimmer for sure, how did you get on with this? Most importantly how noisy is it?

    When you say carbon media is a must, what do you use?

    I was just thinking about what sand to go for and you mention
    oolite sand, will this not be to fine and maybe cause clouding?

    I am sure I will have more questions when I read over what you have posted again.

    Again thank you for taking the time to post all of this.
    Thanks


     
  16. FmJames

    FmJames Fish Health Advisor

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    np :)

    its hard to say 100% with any certainty and really depends on your rock setup and coral placement. I personally went for 1000lph but I fell that I will be adding another 1000 or might replace both with a single 2000, cant say for sure Until I have tried it. So its really up to you, either way the difference will not be night and day and its always possible to add another or replace them.

    Its up to your really, but I would say that you should get a filter. Simply because you need something to put the carbon and rowaphos media and also the water polishing pads in. I mean initially you might not need it, specially as your cycling the tank but its needed 100% as you are not running a sump, or you either plan to stock very little fish or feed your little fish very little to keep the water quality tip top condition. Its certainly possible to run without it by either running a specialised fluidized container for the carbon and rowaphos, but that requires separate piping and pump system, its up to you in the end..

    If you buy the Arcadia electric controller it comes with almost everything you need to attach it to the backside of the lid, they are somewhat waterproof, so i am led to believe. Each controller allows two lights to be added to the tank. I have the original two light units that come with the tank and arcadia controller, together that makes 4 lights. I have 3x28w tubes and the last tube had to be 24w(they are shorter) because it would of touched the protein skimmer otherwise. I am thinking of a another mod, where i might be able to squeeze two more light in there, but not sure on the matter yet. So to summarize i am only 4 T5 light tubes in total.

    No the whole point of a prophylactic treatment is to treat regardless of fish is diseased or not, to try and hopefully eliminate the disease.
    All treatment is done in the QT tank. Read the fish health section, or ask me for more info.

    Its not too bad, and can be damped a little, but i would not put it in your bedroom that is for sure lol. The MCE600 is quieter from memory.

    I use sea chem and put this in a filter media bad bag and wash it a little with ro and put it into the filter. The sea chem ones are quite dust free and require
    little washing but are very expensive. The same is with the rowaphos phosphate remover, which i put in a D&D media bag and wash a little ro and put it in the fluval filter compartment for media.

    possibly, but from the stuff i dealt with when making my sump deep sand bed, Unless you have powerhead directly at it, it should be fine. But its best to play it safe and get sugerfine or reef grade. Its best to ask on the forum from others to see what they have to say as some have more experience with sand than me. Some also put fine bottom layer topped off with more coarse top layer. But its up to you what you do :)

    good luck
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2012
  17. MarkR

    MarkR Registered

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    I will be buying the Arcadia for sure, how many white & blue tubes have you got or have you two of each colour?

    Just a thought as my tank will be a new setup could I not put the prophylactic treatment in for the new fish that go in? After this I would put the treatment into the QT for any new fish that I get, would this work?

    Do you have any pictures so I can see where you have positioned your skimmer, dont worry if not.
     
  18. FmJames

    FmJames Fish Health Advisor

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    I personally have 3x marine blue and 1x 50:50 mix, actinic-marine blue mix - its purple like colour in tone.
    Do keep in mind that all these 4 tumes only give about 108w of light which is way of the minimum 150w or ideal 200w required for SPS corals.
    but you should be able to keep most softies with these. Make a post and other members will recommend what you can buy with that much light.
    unless you buy metal halid or led lights

    no all treatment must be in quarantine tank, When you first setup, just take the rock and put it straight into your tank and add what corals and clean up crew craps and stuff you like when the cycle is complete. But after that do not add fish or anything to the main display, but instead take them to the QT tank and treat there for your qt period and then move them into the main display. By not having fish in your main display tank when you first setup you are in effect letting the disease die out because they don't have a host to reproduce. But any addition or corals to the tank that are not quarantined means that you must restart the 12 week clock. I will explain in more detail if you require. Also corals and fish must be quarantined separately. Quarantine corals is much easier than fish, only require certain commercially dips that are available, other members can help you with their dipping procedure.

    dont add chemicals to your rock when you buy, just straight into your display tank. There are some more advanced thing you cant do but dont feel you might be ready with these and the risk could be great AND reward very little if you don't know what you are doing.

    if you want to know what to do, just ask me and will write something basic up for you when i have some spare time.

    don't have any right now, but will get some up for your midweek hopefully. Just that I am really busy for the next few days. Let me see what i can do :)
    but where i put my skimmer was not ideal, will explain when i post the picture.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2012
  19. MarkR

    MarkR Registered

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    I have only just managed talking the wife into this new marine venture and I know it would be impossible (at the moment) to buy in these QT's just because of the initial outlay and the space they are going to take up before the main tank even gets going with fish. So far I am up to about £600 before livestock. This will at least double if I were to buy these QT's right away.

    I will get these QT tanks very soon after things are setup otherwise I know I will not be able to continue with this. I will add livestock very slowly so I can monitor things. I have learned patience is everything.

    Thank you for your advise which has been unbelievably helpful and look forward to seeing the pics if you get time. Looks like I will be doing lots of ordering later!!
     
  20. MarkR

    MarkR Registered

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    Forgot to mention I will get an external filter but probably after a month or so after everything gets going. I must remember to leave a big enough gap for it.

    Also I could always throw the wife out and then I can go for the QT setup right away Big Thumbs Up
     
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