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Featured Cruel or not

Discussion in 'ULNS Systems' started by jagger0792, Jan 28, 2011.

  1. P.Griffin

    P.Griffin Registered

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    Neither of the basics around the Zeo/lith methods (bacteria/carbon source/coral feed) will cause the pastel colours you see some Zeo tanks reach. It's the 'extra bottles' (things like Zeospur etc) that thin the coral tissue/cause pastel colouration.

    Any form of carbon dosing on its own (pellets/vodka/VSV/the carbon source from Zeo/lith) without the extra addition of some form of coral feed/bacteria can cause pastel colours in corals (I know, I suffered it from dosing VSV without any additional food source for the corals).

    This is my whole point. The OP can't state that Zeo/Lith are cruel methods when any form of carbon dosing if done to quick or to excess can have the same effect.

    I run Ultralith and my corals are far from a pastel colour as I don't like pale looking corals. The trick is to lower the bacteria/carbon dose to a point where it suffciently controls the NO3/PO4 levels in your tank but not too much that it doesn't work, then inrease the coral feed side (Aminos/the amount you feed your fish).
     
  2. Long Dave

    Long Dave Registered

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    The trick is to have low dissolved nutrients, combined with high levels of floating food matter so the coral can regulate it's nutrient intake.

    running any method of carbon dosing, or zeolith is dangerous to corals without sufficient feeding

    I run carbon (in the form of pearls) dosing to allow me with a small sump to manage to feed the tank much more without nuisence algaes appearing or having elevated p04 or n03 levels
     
  3. P.Griffin

    P.Griffin Registered

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    Bingo.
     
  4. blackjack666

    blackjack666 Registered

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    dont like zeo / ULNS systems tbh... to un-natural...

    if you get 2 same species frags (one from a zeo then one traditional) the one from the zeo will be very brittle an almost crumble - generally like they seem to have more of a magnessium makeup than calcium......... a decent traditonal system will make the corals strong as hell - with balling an correct maintanence the coulors are more impressive imo.......
     
  5. Long Dave

    Long Dave Registered

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    I think equally good results can be achieved with a DSB and macroalgaes if you have a big enough sump.....i just dont, mines tiny!

    Is there any reading material on what your suggesting? if this infact true i wonder what it actually it could be to inluence the coral makeup? As per first point, what point is a system considered ULNS? ULNS levels can be achieved without carbon dosing zeo etc. I used to have 0 testable nitrate and 0.008 p04 with just a DSB and cheato, I just couldn't feed as much as i can now.
     
  6. naca

    naca Registered

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    what i dont understand is if zeo (ULNS) is not healthy for sps, why is the growth rate so good ??? and i mean crazy growth in some ULNS systems ive seen. and the corals are not brittle at all either like stated in this thread, brittle acros in my experience usually mean some sort of trace element missing. thts just my opinion tho, and im no expert.
     
  7. Tim Hayes

    Tim Hayes Registered

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    I believe brittle corals are more likely to occur when calcium and carbonates are out of the correct ratio and where the pH value is depressed.

    It's a problem that's been around for years.

    Cheers,
    Tim
     
  8. blackjack666

    blackjack666 Registered

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    think it was jake adams that i hear it from (us reef boffin) who mentioned the side effect in a lot of zeo sps systems......
     
  9. naca

    naca Registered

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    ive come across it twice , not in zeo systems tho, all params were in check, both systems started dosing trace elements, after 2 months the sps were rock solid again. think in both cases the systems were being drained of them so fast that water changes wasnt keeping up, the tanks were rammed full of acros top to bottom.
     
  10. naca

    naca Registered

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    anyone explain why the growth rates are so good in ULNS ??
    not that im going down that route, big cheato bed all the way for me Big Thumbs Up
     
  11. naca

    naca Registered

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    anyone ????
     
  12. blackjack666

    blackjack666 Registered

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    its not generally down to the fact its ULNS imo - its more the other additives involved from what i gather..... its still easy to argue though!! with just water changes i was seeing 5mm growth a week per tip on my hysterix and pavona growing a similar rate with nitrates at 25 and phos at 0.03... similar story when balling - far from "ulns conditions" but still see a rediculous growth rate!
     
  13. Dedrater

    Dedrater Registered

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    I know this thread is extremely old but it was a definite eye opener, as someone who was thinking of going down the Zeovit route I may now rethink my plans. I thought I'd done enough reading on Zeovit & Ultralith.....back to the books & forums! lol
     
  14. Mitchell

    Mitchell Registered

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    I would not let this thread put you off the Zeo route. Zeo is not about starving corals its about regulating the conditions in your system on a bacterial level up.

    Zeo tanks don't have to run on a knifes edge, they can be simple, stable systems.
     
  15. Jamie@Vertex

    [email protected] Registered

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    Mitchell is absolutely correct. Managing an aquarium biotop is what this hobby is about. In comparison to our tanks, a reef is a pristine, nutrient-poor environment (in a healthy reef, that is!). Maintaining low dissolved nutrients is part of the deal. Feeding the corals is, also, part of the deal. This means particulate matter as well as dissolved nutrients that can be quickly absorbed.

    For the record, there are reefs with corals of very pale and striking colour. Indeed, almost white corals with coloured tips and polyps may predominate They are becoming ever more rare, as our oceans are polluted and global warming takes its toll. Corals are amazingly adaptable creatures and are capable of living in a variety of environmental conditions. There is no single environment that is perfect. When you think about it, that would be pretty ludicrous. Corals would have died out long ago!

    In the end, if you want darker corals, then seek a system balance that allows these colours. If you want pale corals, than adjust the system accordingly. Your corals will tell you, if they are happy. I prefer more depth to my colours, but I still like clarity, so I aim somewhere in the middle. It is nice to have a choice, isn't it. There are no moral issues involved.

    Jamie
     
  16. bbewekim

    bbewekim Registered

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    I think that to run a system like this you generally would care about your stock and put a good amount of time in making things right as it costs so much.

    What is cruel is the people who buy all sorts of corals without any knowledge or willingness to learn/ research who kill corals and fish all the time because they have awful water quality.

    Regal tang in a nano, lovely bright coloured millipora in a tank with poor lighting and nitrates and phosphates off the charts... That's cruel.
     
  17. Jamie@Vertex

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    This is one of the sad sides of any hobby involving living organisms. I think I can speak for us all in saying we haved killed our share of corals over the years. Either through ignorance of the corals requirements or just plain old screw-ups. I hope we all learned from this and have the courage to share our failures with others. We have come a very long way since I started keeping marines and I see a positive balance. Consider, 20 years ago we couldn't even get frags to grow consistently. Now it's an industry. Ten years ago, we couldn't test for phosphates reliably! Now we use it's levels to control colour and growth.

    We are on the plus side of the equation.

    Jamie

     
  18. Eyore

    Eyore Guest

    Just stumbled on this part of the forum!

    Here is a question- define ulns?

    Obviously "ultra low nutrient system", but what does that mean?

    (a) below measurable no3 and po4 only, or
    (b) the above plus a carefully thought about feeding regime for a lowish stocked tank

    (note that a lot of people will only achieve (a) through (b), but just because this is how it happens does that mean (b) is the definition of ulns??

    The reason I put this forward is because I have had for a good time below measurable no3 and po4, in differant setups, with differant load. I don't carbon sourse of any kind, only algaes. I should also say I do not need gfo to do so.
    Therefore I have noticed the effects on Lps and Sps types, growth and colouration, according to the numbers of fish and amount of feeds. Essentially the more of both you have the darker you get corals, and visa versa. So in essense, I can play, to achieve what I want (ish)

    Ultimatley my point is this- po4 and no3 testing tells you what remains, it does not tell you what is supplied and produced, and then exported. For nearly all coral a good supply I feel is enough (Inc most lps), aminos are not needed, organic po4, ammonia etc are food, corals will get the same as the bacteria.

    Just my thoughts
     
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