1. Welcome to The Salty Box, a forum to discuss everything related to Marine & Reef Fish keeping in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in discussions with others.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon

    Dismiss Notice

Featured ATI Essentials

Discussion in 'Help and Advice' started by aces_up1504, Jun 23, 2016.

  1. aces_up1504

    aces_up1504 Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2011
    Messages:
    948
    Likes Received:
    2
    Anyone using this method for dosing?

    I have decided to tip my hat towards it and see how it goes. Mainly due to the make up ease and being very time stretched and the moment.

    The have been a few threads on a certain other UK based forum but they have generally gone the way of a mud slinging contest.
     
  2. warby

    warby Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2013
    Messages:
    5,695
    Likes Received:
    6
    Never heard of it matey. Can't go wrong with fauna marin balling lite though. 3 bottles to add trace elements into alk and calc.

    Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
     
  3. aces_up1504

    aces_up1504 Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2011
    Messages:
    948
    Likes Received:
    2
    It basically looks like a bas tard of Triton and Balling Classic. Liquid concentrated elements / Trace elements which are diluted down.
     
  4. Balling

    Balling Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2015
    Messages:
    133
    Likes Received:
    0
    Classic is 3 salts to mix 3 solutions, to dose equally, creating ionically balanced calcium carbonate, and a proximally of seawater

    Triton is 1 salt and 3 solutions to mix 3 solutions (or 4 if you like), to dose equally, to create ionically balanced calcium carbonate, and a proximally of seawater

    Ati i am not 100% of number of bottles and if wet /dry, but you mix 3 solutions, dose equally, producing ionically balanced calcium carbonate, and a proximally of seawater

    Not sure why anybody wants to pay to pay £20-£40 for a couple of litres of ro/di but he ho

    All are 84g/l nahco3
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2016
  5. aces_up1504

    aces_up1504 Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2011
    Messages:
    948
    Likes Received:
    2
    2 solutions 1 salt but can be dosed unequal as long as mag and Ca are matched.

    Against all fauna Marin its priced very favourable at least 50% cheaper overall but I appreciate FM salts are very expensive

    But with FM trace and say bioaquatek prices work out similar.
     
  6. Balling

    Balling Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2015
    Messages:
    133
    Likes Received:
    0
    Can they??

    And how will that work with no water changes?

    Ati are not answering pertinent questions regarding this

    Its a chemistry fudge

    There is no reason why you could do the same with triton with very comparable (if not undetectable) resultant chemistry

    Likewise with balling lite, the only real differance is sulphate with ballong lite
     
  7. aces_up1504

    aces_up1504 Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2011
    Messages:
    948
    Likes Received:
    2
    I think their is a little confusion and claims by some people that water changes are not required.

    The ATI website claims minimal water changes. TBH I will probably still do frequent water change maybe not once week like I do now.
     
  8. Balling

    Balling Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2015
    Messages:
    133
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ok minimal water changes

    It still doesnt answer the question of ionic balance, and a shortening of the ratio between sodium and chloride, compounded by less chloride inputted from part 3

    It looks to me like the same issue as all the other manufacturers (ie fm who advice water change), only with a differant answer - ignore it till you get there, rather than preventing getting there
     
  9. aces_up1504

    aces_up1504 Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2011
    Messages:
    948
    Likes Received:
    2
    It's out of my comfort zone water chemistry wise getting down to ionic balance of sodium and chloride.

    I am right in thinking if you dose equally you maintain ionic balance, it only when you deviate away the problem occurs?

    Obviously getting into advanced reef keeping now, but what is problem that it causes?
     
  10. Balling

    Balling Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2015
    Messages:
    133
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes you are correct

    When you dose at 84g/l nahco3 and cacl2 2h2o at 73.5g/l you produce exactly- calcium carbonate and salt

    What you have to realise is ionic balance is equal positive and negative ions and not weight.
    And charge balance is a fundamental law. So sodium carbonate- ionically balanced, calcium chloride- ionically balanced, so if you pull calcium carbonate (ionically balanced), the remainder is then ionically balanced (salt), yes ?

    So given pot 1 and 2 are equal balance pot 3 is too yes?

    So if you take the above as 2 substances creates 2 differant substances
    You cannot then alter the ratio, remove calcium and carbonate and have exsactly salt left over, it is not possible, you have an imbalance

    To give another hint towards my point

    You have salt left over from pots one and 2, in a bucket of salt mix this part is literally salt. The rest of the ingredients in this bucket of salt are to create the rest of seawater, there are numerous ways tido this, but one is magnesium sulphate, magnesium chloride, potassium chloride, calcium chloride, sodium bicarbonate, potassium bromide, boric acid, lithium sulphate, sodium molybdate etc etc

    Something similar is in pot 3 with triton and ati and any wet products, though some are shifted into pot 2 to avoid conflict and also maybe pot 1 even if its dry (wet is easier)
     
  11. aces_up1504

    aces_up1504 Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2011
    Messages:
    948
    Likes Received:
    2
    I understand the general principles and of course if its balenced and then alter concentrations something has to shift, what are the consequences for creating ionic inbalance in real terms in our tanks?
     
  12. Balling

    Balling Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2015
    Messages:
    133
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dont know, never dared do it
    Dont know anyone that has

    BUT balling lite 8% water change per week is adviced to dilute this out,.and what ati are suggesting is basically balling lite
     
  13. aces_up1504

    aces_up1504 Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2011
    Messages:
    948
    Likes Received:
    2
    Yeah I think that ATI are rev inventing the wheel are kidding themselves. It just their version of already used methods.

    It does appear well priced and was set up and ready to go in no time.

    Time will tell if it's sucessful or gain a following, but giving it a go and will report.

    I was going to go with the aqua forest premade balling but seemed a lot of people struggled to dose equally with Alkalinity rising sharply, it may well happen with with ATI version but not enough users yet
     
  14. Balling

    Balling Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2015
    Messages:
    133
    Likes Received:
    0
    All balling methods are based upon a ratio of 8 parts bicarb to 7 calcium chloride dehydrate. The premixed versions and the dry are all the same in this regard. Though there are variations- aparantly potassium is in 1 in triton which is likely potassium bicarbonate so things are adjusted accordingly, likewise fm classic recipe is adjusted i believe

    Whaf doesnt alter though is the principle of adding at exactly the same rate needed for calcium carbonate (same as a calcium reactor, ckalkwasser and calcium acetate), is problematic. Most people need a little more alk than is dosed so they need to turn things up, which leads to calcium acumulating

    Actually there are ways around this but it is not mass marketable

    Ultimatly though in.a 10 litre set of 3

    There is 840g of bicarb, 735 grammes of calcium chloride dehydrate, and between 250g and 300g of other salts 80% + of which are magnesium compounds. And this is the same for all, triton ati classic of all types

    You could make these up yourself for around £5 while laying out less than £50 on balling salts (off the top of my head)
    I could probably knock it up for around £2 in salts but then i have everything i need to do so
     
  15. aces_up1504

    aces_up1504 Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2011
    Messages:
    948
    Likes Received:
    2
    I thought with balling lite it's 2kg of calcium and magnesium and 500g of bicarb in 5 litres then 25 ml x 3 of trace 1,2,3

    Maybe be me being thick how to this configure to you quoted quantities for 10 litres?

    Both methods work out about 36ml per 100 litres to raise 1dkh.
     
  16. Balling

    Balling Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2015
    Messages:
    133
    Likes Received:
    0
    My apologies i was refering to classic balling recipes to be dosed in equal quanties

    Not balling lite

    Balling lite is
    100g/l nahco3 and 400g/l cacl22h2o

    If you were to mix these at 84g/l nahco3 you would need 840g nahco3 and 42 ml trace b, 735 g cacl2 2h2o 9.2ml x2 trace b
    Ideally you would need a correctly balanced magnesium which would be approximately 25g/l as well, or you use magnesium chloride hexahydrate at a smidge less g/l (forgive me its late and i am too busy to wotk out exsactly)

    All in doing this with 4kg balling fm salts the costs would be about £15 for 3x 10l
     
  17. Balling

    Balling Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2015
    Messages:
    133
    Likes Received:
    0
    I suppose my point re all this

    Its all just salts

    There is no magic

    Unless sticking to balance forget any percieved water change cost savings in terms of money time or ease
    Otherwise its just claims others hadnt dared to make
     
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice