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Featured Add your quarantine approach here:

Discussion in 'Fish Health' started by Crypto, Aug 21, 2011.

  1. Crypto

    Crypto Registered

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    Add your quarantine tank approaches and any related treatment questions to this thread.

    Crypto -
    Page 1
    nphsmith Page 4


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Crypto:
    In response to the ongoing to disease problems in home aquariums. I thought I would discuss how I try to prevent disease entering my system.

    My only approach is PREVENTION. This involves a quarantine period and several treatments (prophylactic - treating to prevent)

    My set up:
    Size: ~100 litres

    Equipment:
    Interpet PF4 (1000 litres per hour) with ceramic rings and sponge
    Rena Smart Heater 200w
    TMC V400 Protein skimmer with meshwheel pump
    23W Energy efficient light bulb 2700K

    Current stock in quarantine:
    Acanthurus olivaceous - Orange Shoulder Tang
    Cirrhitichthys aprinus or Cirrhitichthys species - Spotted Hawkfish

    Current Parameters:
    Salinity: 31ppt
    Temperature: 27.3
    pH: 8.00

    [​IMG]

    I've made a plastic partition with drilled holes to divide the fish.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]



    Treatments
    Copper - Seachem Cupramine maintained at 0.25mg/l (Salifert) for 10 days.
    > This treats many parasites which host on the skin (ectoparasites).


    Praziquantel - Currently Sera Tramazol but trialing other methods. Lasts for 6 hours, treatment in a filtered bucket.
    > This treats most parasitic flatworms (flukes) and intestinal worms (cestodes).


    FW Dips with Myxazin - 2 per fish. pH and Temperature matched and lasts approximately 3-4 minutes.
    > This treats parasitic copepods, ectoparasites, flukes.


    Length of Quarantine
    8 weeks if no symptoms occur after treatment. 12 if symptoms show.

    Freshwater Dips Example:

    A Balling tub containing approximately 1 litre of water. Heated to 24C and aerated. Sodium Bicarbonate was added to reach an approximate pH of 8.3. Myxazin was added at a volume of 0.3ml.
    [​IMG]

    Fish then added for approximately 2 mins and 45 seconds.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    ........And the fish feeding 5 minutes later.
    [​IMG]

    If done quickly and without hesitation it causes very little stress to the fish.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Any thoughts or questions welcome.

    Aaron
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2012
  2. jamesfirth1

    jamesfirth1 Registered

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    Re: My Quarantine Approach

    Will be watching this one, I have a quarantine set up, but I haven't used it yet. Do you need a skimmer, I just have a 60l tank with a small internal filter, and a powerhead.
     
  3. Crypto

    Crypto Registered

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    Re: My Quarantine Approach

    Technically not but I find it helps with the oxygenation. As your using a powerhead, that should act as a suitable substitute.
     
  4. Inklinkerman

    Inklinkerman Registered

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    Re: My Quarantine Approach

    Just one question.... Is a cup of tea 100% necessiary? I know it makes us all feel better but come on.........:)

    but seriously, thanks for that. Maybe should be a sticky after abit of further discussion.

    Cheers
     
  5. Crypto

    Crypto Registered

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    Re: My Quarantine Approach

    hahahha the fish like that extra bit of caffeine to fight off the parasites!!
     
  6. Matt@Epo

    [email protected] Registered

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    Re: My Quarantine Approach

    I have a couple of questions if you dont mind.

    With most parasites having a 10-14 day life cycle do you think 8 weeks is necessary?
    Do you consider cross contamination from hoses or nets etc?
    Do you consider that contaminants/pathogens on coral additions are a more likely vehicle into the display tank and having the ability to lay dormant for months without a fish host have you developed any screening for coral additions aswell as RX.

    Do you treat fish that are sensitive to copper, ie blennies, wrasse differently?

    What salinity do you keep the QT system at? Do you lower it and then raise it back slowly before the fish are aclimitised to the DT?
     
  7. Crypto

    Crypto Registered

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    Re: My Quarantine Approach

    Aaron
     
  8. PaulTys

    PaulTys Registered

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    Re: My Quarantine Approach

    A few points...

    Why do you have a filter? The copper will kill any bacteria on the filter. Id say the skimmer is therefore important unless you can do lots of water changes (which we do duiring quarentine with no filtration at all)

    Another point about copper is that it can adsorb onto silicon plastic and all sorts of things. I dont like it myself and as an alternative we use hypo salinity. 14/15ppt for a 12 week period. We are actually doing this in our main system at the moment.

    With regards to Matt comments of corals as a source of pathogens, I would say it will depend on the source. TMC hold their corals in systems that are entirely isolated from any fish, if your Local LFS uses TMC and does the same I think the risk is minimal.

    If howver they have come from another reefer that has previously had problems or ebay god forbid!! Then I would suggest that yes, if you can a lengthy period of quarentine away from any fish hosts would be a good idea if you can keep them

    As for prazi, we use solupraz, now called fluke solve, good product, originally developed for koi carp Fish Treatment Ltd – Specialist Fish medicines Solupraz and Mectinsol

    Cheers
     
  9. Crypto

    Crypto Registered

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    Re: My Quarantine Approach

    Thanks for the link, will be looking into it properly on my next batch of fish.

    Aaron
     
  10. Heliart

    Heliart Registered

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    Re: My Quarantine Approach

    I'm interested in this. I've been thinking about treating my fish in QT with Tramazol before entering the DT, perhaps towards the end of the QT period. Having to perform a 80% water change after 6 hours was a problem for me, but perhaps doing this on the way from the QT to the DT in a holding tank (bucket) would be the less stressful method.

    I had an outbreak of WS on a blackhead gramma after 3 weeks in QT. I treated with TMC's new copper treatment (just back on the market, and the same treatment they use at their facilities). Cleared up really well, but did kill the external filter, so forced me to do water changes every 3 days.

    Thing is, after having WS in QT, I'm oh so thankful I run a QT system. Having that happen in the DT would be heart breaking.

    Good work and thanks for sharing.

    Steve
     
  11. Heliart

    Heliart Registered

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    Re: My Quarantine Approach

    And while thinking about it, QT of corals and inverts gives me some concerns. Now we have treated copper in the main QT tank, It's out of the question to QT coral or inverts in there - even after a major breakdown/clean/refill.

    So, I've been thinking long and hard about getting a nice litte nano reef setup and use this just for QT of corals and inverts.
    Would have lighting, filters etc, and certainly enough to keep the coral happy for a month or two.

    Comments?

    Steve
     
  12. PaulTys

    PaulTys Registered

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    Re: My Quarantine Approach

    Hi Aaron,

    I hope you are well, Im surprised we havent seen you in the museum since the saltybox event.

    You convinced me on the nitrite toxicity but Im afraid not on the copper and filtration bacteria. The bacteria that lives on the filter media is not one species which studies are normally performed on it is a complex ecosystem of bacteria and although there may be studies indicating some are tollerant to copper exposure at low levels I believe that the many are inhibited by it even at very low levels. Incidently I couldnt find any studies that related specifically to toxicity in a tank filter environment or even in a marine environment, have you seen any?

    I did find a very good article on copper use here and it suggests concentrations of 0.3mg/l may be toxic.

    http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa165.

    And for you Aaron, if you then click on the authors name there is a whole list of publications that I imagine you would be interested in.

    Ive no doubt that you are aware Aaron but for others benefit, copper acts at the cellular level. It actually kills the cells on the surface of fish in your quarentine tank too, the only difference is that fish have billions of cells, bacteria have one.

    That being said there is evidence of bacteria becoming tollerant to metals over time and yes there are certainly studies of inhibitory effects not being seen untill you reach 5mgl or even 9mgl and perhaps this situation could occur within a filter, particularly if it is set up as a permanent quarentine tank and is always running. But it is not something I would like to rely on.

    I guess if you have a filter and it is helping to keep ammonia and nitrite down despite the copper additions then I guess it makes no difference. It would be interesting to take some water with a controlled level of ammonia and then filter it with a filter that has been used and matured within copper.

    As for the silicon, I meant adsorbed as opposed to absorbed, my mistake. Tanks used for copper treatment will show levels of copper long after the treatment has ended using sensitive equipment and once used for copper treatments are used solely for this purpose from then on for exactly that reason.

    If you have any papers etc relating to copper toxicity in nitrifying bacteria, particularly in a marine environment please PM me.

    Cheers mate
     
  13. FmJames

    FmJames Fish Health Advisor

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    Re: My Quarantine Approach

    Hi

    I have read that article few days ago and found it very intresting but

    In regards to adsorbed as apposed to absorbed, yes the science clearly indicated that copper should be present, but Many who have used copper in QT tanks with fish which have latter used the same tank for inverts and corals and have shown no adverse effects.

    Also the same with filter bacterial, many do not get ammonia or nitrite issues when using copper. I am not sure what to believe anymore and would be very interested in any scientific articles pointing to such being the caes.
     
  14. Crypto

    Crypto Registered

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    Re: My Quarantine Approach

    I do my Tremazol in a bucket with just an airstone. :smile:

    Which treatment is this? 3 day 'copper cure'?

    Aaron
     
  15. Crypto

    Crypto Registered

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    Re: My Quarantine Approach

    Copper can be easily cleaned, i've run inverts in a QT previously used with copper.

    But another tank sounds like a better idea, nanos are ideal given everything is included (particularly lighting).

    Just acknowledge you won't be able to QT SPS without difficulty.
     
  16. Crypto

    Crypto Registered

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    Re: My Quarantine Approach

    Hi Paul,

    Sorry I haven't been down, very busy with visiting retail shops and wholesalers for the research.

    Will organise a meeting before October.

    I remember a year back when I first looked up the effects of heavy metals (copper) on nitrifying bacteria. I only found information relating to partial inhibition of nitrification and not total inhibition. This was relating to freshwater wastewater filtration but not seawater. (I've got these if you want them).

    This would coincide with my experiences of copper and filters. Not had any Total Ammonia Nitrogen increase any time within QT.

    I understand copper does attack cells and this would give evidence as to why fish behave abnormal when treatment occurs. However, in my opinion the drawbacks are outweighed by the benefits.

    What are your thoughts on the 'myth' about surgeons having micro-organisms within the gut which is damaged by copper?

    Also mandarins......most retailers and importers keep mandarins in copper levels of 0.1mg/l without problems?

    Aaron
     
  17. Naythan

    Naythan Registered

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    Re: My Quarantine Approach

    I am going to jump in at the deep end here, but this looks like it is a pretty good thread to ask my quarantine questions in.

    I am setting up my first marine tank, at the moment. I want to do it the right way from the start. I have had a few friends lose their tangs and other tank mates to white spot.

    So, using whitespot as the starting point, I started researching QT’s and HT’s. I decided that I would treat each of my new fish in a HT (questions to follow on the treatments) and shift from the HT in to a hyposaline QT for 8 weeks before moving on to the DT. (Yes, I have been reading a lot of these threads. Despite working in IT and having acronyms galore, it actually took me a while to work out what HT/QT/DT was)

    I will also be Coral RX dipping and fishless QT’ing my corals for a minimum of 8 weeks.

    Anyway, my questions are in regards to the HT treatments.
    1. What parasites should I be treating and how long for? Is a treatment of Acriflavin going to be enough when followed by hyposalinity, or should I be looking at Acriflavin followed by Praziquantel (can they be treated at the same time?), then hyposalinity?
    2. Is it generally acceptable to use these treatments as a preventative?
    3. Is this level of caution reasonable, or do the more experienced think I am possibly being an over cautious newbie?

    Any and all comments are more than welcome. Patience is a virtue that I have always struggled with and I would dearly love to stock my tank a lot quicker than the above process is going to allow.


    Thanks.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2011
  18. FmJames

    FmJames Fish Health Advisor

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    Re: My Quarantine Approach

    Hi

    How you QT and what treatment you apply really for me depends on the type of fish you have and how many you will QT together. Ok as an example of some complication of QT.

    Tangs are notorious for ich and wild caught clown fish for Brookynella. If you for example bought both fish together and dropped them into QT and treated for marine ich with Hypo treatment. What would you do if your fish also developed Brooklynella few days later?? You could end up with treating two fish for different disease where the medications are totally different or their use together at the dosage required might not be effective in eradication both disease together or makes the whole task of treating a little bit more tricky.

    Normally I would advice one fish at a time but because of time constraints I had dropped 4 fish into QT this time round(I have 4ft qt tank). My procedure was to first observe the fish for 1-2 weeks and let to them acclimatise to the environment and let any disease show itself. But after this period I treated prophylactic. I did get what looked like Brooklynella symptoms and treated with acrilflavin(read my post about treating with acrilflavin) first. Since there was no marine ich symptoms, i decided to do two round of dworming( I tried both gyradol 2 and fluke solve and have my doubts about the effective ness of either medication but much more on this to follow later). I am now in the middle of hyposalinity treatment.

    So a simple QT procedure should involve
    1)Acrilflavin or formalin dip/bath for either brookynella and marin velvet
    2) Hyposalinity or copper treatment for ich
    3)praziquentel for deworming use fluke solve for a long term bath at 2-3.00 ppm for 7 days( Me and Aaron are going to do a general write up on deworming so look out for this, I am also going to try more specific dewormers toward the end of my QT procedure)

    In what order and treatment you decide to treat depends on what you observe and how confident you are about mixing different treatments.

    For example, hyposalinity and copper must not be administered together. I don't want to state here what different treatment combinations are because they require the user to be fairly adept and have some experience with treating each medication. I don't advice mixing medication even though its possible and experienced aqurist do if only necessary.

    I think copper treatment for ich for 14 days is a much faster method of treating for ich than with Hypo for 8-12 weeks. That is only if copper would be your last treatment and fish are removed into DT while copper is present, the reason for this is due to the life cycle of ich but however I should state this is just a precautionary measure. I personally prefer to transfer fish few times to even be more certain.

    How to perform hypo in general

    1) drop the salinity slowly over 4-7 days to 1.009

    2) maintain this for 8 weeks minimum, i prefer 10 and ideally 12weeks(should
    should be observed for symptoms of sensitivity to hypo during this period)

    3) must maintain this level of salinity very carefully, use refractometer with high preciea scale. Test daily and compensate for water evaporation

    4) A Small swing in salinity to lets say 1.011 could render your treatment useless

    5) some strains of ich have been show to be resistant to salinity much lower than 1.009 but you would be very very unlucky to have such a strain.

    6)after your 8-12 weeks treatment, fish must be brought out of hypo and observed for a further 4 weeks in normal salt levels for signs of ich if yes treatment should start again.

    7) Fish MUST be brought out of hypo very slowly, ideally over 7 days and only in emergency situations 3-4 days(although there are exceptions in either case)

    that should cover most of it,

    good luck
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2011
  19. Naythan

    Naythan Registered

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    Thanks for the reply. I was planning on a few fish at a time, always from the same supplier each time. Hopefully I won't get two from the same supplier with different infections, fingers crossed.

    I have read a lot about the less stressful benefits of hypo salinity when compared with copper treatments. I am quite concerned about distressing the fish any more than they already have been. For this reason I have not really looked at copper or freshwater dip. Is hypo salinity not considered to be as reliable/effective as copper treatments? Are fish generally distressed by copper treatments, or is it more precautionary talk the common place?

    I have a tunze top up unit and a dd refractometer, so I am hoping the salinity is not going to be too much of a problem. My biggest concern at this point on the hypo front is maintaing the ph.
     
  20. PaulTys

    PaulTys Registered

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    Re: My Quarantine Approach

    An excellent reply from FM James.

    Aaron (Crypto) I realise I went off thread a little and didnt really comment on your actual QT procedures, which by the way are excellent.

    In the museum we are currently putting our main system through a hypo treatment. it is currently a fish only system but in the future will have corals so we want to treat now as we wont be able to in the future.

    The system has been kept at 14-15ppt for around 12 weeks now and although non of the fish had any visible problems before hand, I have to say they now look so much brighter and happier. Presumably we have got rid of all sorts of underlying parasites that whilst werent causing a specific dsiease outbreak or problem, were just causing the fish to be slightly surpressed and not quite in tip top condition.

    When running Qt we always talk about cyryptocarion and flukes specifically but there is no doubt a whole host of diseasesm and parasites that crop up in enclosed marine systems and the benefit of Quarentine is plain to see.

    BAck to the copper and filtration thing Aaron, that is the problem not enough work has been done on copper and nitryfication bacteria in marine aquariums, its all on freshwater waste management!! But the proof of the pudding is in the tasting so if you have no issue with it then great. I just wouldnt want to give anyone the impression that maybe they could try a copper treatment in a display tank with a mature filter or live rock, on the basis that it wont affect filtration bacteria as I think that could prove disasterous!!

    Anyway, pop in whenever, just PM me first

    Cheers
     
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